The first Bret vs. Shawn, guys get tangled in barbed wire, Hogan and Warrior try to outcrazy each other again, Luger turns, Pillman shows out, and more!
I never would've thought Bret and Shawn touched each other in 1990 outside of a tag match. Even in a quick TV double DQ if you squint you can see what's around the bend, at least for Bret (I'm a Bret over Shawn guy. I'm not apologizing).
You nail my exact issue with a lot of deathmatch wrestling, which is that a lot of time is spent laying still, or standing still setting up some stunt. I say 'stunt' and not wrestling move because it looks so fake, and if it hurts so bad that you have to be so cautious that you can't make it look real, why do it?
Both of these opinions are just side notes to my true takeaway from this week, which is the same takeaway from most weeks, which is that I will NEVER have my fill of Jerry Lawler. In one paragraph he gets in racism, and classism, and in the succeeding few minutes he throws in shots at Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan (both of whom are not going to wrestle Jerry Lawler), and some sexism on top. Do not binge watch Jerry Lawler, but once per week this is fantastic, and brings me to yet another point.
I miss when heels used to be offensive.
Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but every Jerry promo used to contain something that'd get the network thrown off the TV network today, and that's fantastic, because he's the BAD GUY. I hate how modern wrestling is forced to be so PC there are no legitimately bad people on TV anymore. The only two villain archetypes that seem to work on NA TV are the 'I'm better than you. How can you ever beat me?' types, like MJF, Gunther, Roman Reigns (pre WM), etc., and the 'I'm in a position I clearly don't belong' types (the Elite, Solo Sikoa, the Rock, etc.). Every other supposed villain either gets cheered or is so poor they get no reaction at all.
I'm reminded of Triple H telling Booker T that 'someone like *you* doesn't get to be world champion.' People look back on this these days as if it was cringe, but I think exactly the opposite. It was a fantastic way to get me to cheer for Booker against the evil rich white kid HHH. These days, Adam Page is fighting Swerve, and nobody cares. Could you imagine if Adam played the race card? That'd be a quick way to inject some real hatred into this.
Perhaps I'm unique in yearning for the days before the sponsors would pull the show off TV if the people presented as being bad people actually do anything to indicate that they're bad people, but I'd love for the bad people on the show to actually do bad things like they used to. I'd also love if I could get a grumpy, surly faced old man like Ole Anderson back on my TV in the modern day. I think that's a villain archetype that could work in wrestling today, but nobody is even trying it.
Yeah, I was a Shawn guy for many years, but I find that Bret's stuff has aged much better over the years. I love watching Bret's stuff and picking up on little things he'd throw in there.
Deathmatches can be really fun stunt shows when done correctly, but sometimes they do end up being bogged down by slow spots and setup.
I definitely agree that there are more heels that could be doing more to be hated, rather than be 'cool heels'. Christian is a great example of someone who does what he can to be unlikeable.
My biggest issue with HHH/Booker T was that HHH won completely clean in the end and moved on. If you're going to introduce a racial element to build heat, the babyface needs to win, or at least have some semblance of comeuppance so that the racist isn't validated.
I'll agree to disagree about the Swerve/Hangman stuff, though. That feud involved home invasions and arson, and I feel they did a great job making an extremely personal issue without relying on racism. Plus, I *loved* their Texas Death match from Full Gear. That's an example of the hardcore/deathmatch style being done right.
Of course, I forgot to mention that HHH winning in the end, therefore making him entirely correct in his assertion, likely means the assertion shouldn't have been made in the first place. Things like that can be handled case by case.
Perhaps this is another tangent for another day, but I'm here now. I think the wrestling business needs to work on not being so brazen in its fakeness. There are things that succeed hugely by continuously rubbing in your face how fake they are (the new Mad Max movies are perfect examples), but it's few and far between, and something like burning a man's house down on TV does more to remind me how fake this all is and take me out of it than make me hate Adam Page. I entirely disagree with your claim that it made it into a personal issue. I believe to many people (none of whom were watching, not at all a coincidence) it's exactly the opposite.
When I watch Ole Anderson threaten Lex Luger because there's three of us and one of you, I can buy that. I've seen that happen many times. When I see Adam Page burn a man's house down, with a cameraman as his accomplice, and see neither of them face any repercussions whatsoever, it makes it feel fake and like a television show. I understand that it is fake, and it is a television show, but the Undertaker signs his autograph the Undertaker, wrestling doesn't get the luxury of being able to act entirely fake like a television show would.
There's nothing wrong with being fake, as long as there's the possibility of it being real. Does CM Punk hate Drew McIntyre once that curtain closes? I don't know. Almost certainly not, but it's possible. How many people in Washington this year have burned a house down, admitted to it, filmed and broadcasted it, and not incurred the intervention of police?
The same goes in the matches. In a real fight, would someone be distracted by their opponent's cornerman? Likely not, but I've seen it. On the other hand, in a real fight (even one where such a thing would be allowed) would anybody stop inflicting pain on their opponent in order to put a needle through their adversary's cheek? Geez Hangman, you can't hate him that bad if you had to do this nonsense before caving his head in with a steel chair.
I don't know if AEW just has bad producers or bad wrestlers or what, but their matches in particular (talking strictly about main events. There are poor wrestlers in every company) seem to have logic holes like these in them all the time. If Hangman wants to maim Swerve more than he wants to win, why not just bash his head in and give him CTE, no needle required? If Hangman is doing anything he can to win, climb out of the cage and don't do any of this. Clearly then, his motivation is neither of these things, and what are we even doing here?
To tie this back into the original idea here, there are ways to do this stuff without feeling fake. If you burn a man's house down I scoff and change the channel. If you make fun of him for being too stupid with money to realise buying a house he doesn't need is the first step most athletes take to going broke, I could get behind that. Yeah it's offensive, and yeah it's got connotations, especially (in this example) coming from a man with a Virginia background and accent, but it's real feeling.
The sponsors may not like that being on their TV, but I think you could get away with this if you give it to a good enough talker. Even if not, AEW is doing such a good job running off sponsors with their regular programming that they ought to try to pull in a few wrestling fans. I did not mean this to be a hate on AEW session, but I do have serious issues with their presentation, mostly the nonsensical matches with wrestlers who can never seem to keep their motivations straight.
Bret and Shawn both shined in the ring as tag team wrestlers and the rise to the absolute top as singles for both of them was fun to watch for me. I can't say though I would have predicted it for either when they first arrived in WWF, simply based on the general criteria that seemed to be in place for a wrestler to rise to the top at that time. Your posts are continuing to make me want to go back and watch some of the old weekly shows from the same era!
Thanks, glad to hear that you're enjoying the posts! Yeah, watching at the time, not many would have pegged Shawn or Bret as future main-eventers. Probably IC title-level at most as the top of the card was the Land of the Giants. However, they had to take a chance on better, smaller athletes when the steroid scandal really started to break loose.
Yeah, agreed. I think at some point a little later in the decade the trend would have started to shift naturally away from the huge size criteria to be pushed at a high level, but the supreme ability of both Shawn and Bret to resonate with an audience helped usher in a new era quicker.
I never would've thought Bret and Shawn touched each other in 1990 outside of a tag match. Even in a quick TV double DQ if you squint you can see what's around the bend, at least for Bret (I'm a Bret over Shawn guy. I'm not apologizing).
You nail my exact issue with a lot of deathmatch wrestling, which is that a lot of time is spent laying still, or standing still setting up some stunt. I say 'stunt' and not wrestling move because it looks so fake, and if it hurts so bad that you have to be so cautious that you can't make it look real, why do it?
Both of these opinions are just side notes to my true takeaway from this week, which is the same takeaway from most weeks, which is that I will NEVER have my fill of Jerry Lawler. In one paragraph he gets in racism, and classism, and in the succeeding few minutes he throws in shots at Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan (both of whom are not going to wrestle Jerry Lawler), and some sexism on top. Do not binge watch Jerry Lawler, but once per week this is fantastic, and brings me to yet another point.
I miss when heels used to be offensive.
Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but every Jerry promo used to contain something that'd get the network thrown off the TV network today, and that's fantastic, because he's the BAD GUY. I hate how modern wrestling is forced to be so PC there are no legitimately bad people on TV anymore. The only two villain archetypes that seem to work on NA TV are the 'I'm better than you. How can you ever beat me?' types, like MJF, Gunther, Roman Reigns (pre WM), etc., and the 'I'm in a position I clearly don't belong' types (the Elite, Solo Sikoa, the Rock, etc.). Every other supposed villain either gets cheered or is so poor they get no reaction at all.
I'm reminded of Triple H telling Booker T that 'someone like *you* doesn't get to be world champion.' People look back on this these days as if it was cringe, but I think exactly the opposite. It was a fantastic way to get me to cheer for Booker against the evil rich white kid HHH. These days, Adam Page is fighting Swerve, and nobody cares. Could you imagine if Adam played the race card? That'd be a quick way to inject some real hatred into this.
Perhaps I'm unique in yearning for the days before the sponsors would pull the show off TV if the people presented as being bad people actually do anything to indicate that they're bad people, but I'd love for the bad people on the show to actually do bad things like they used to. I'd also love if I could get a grumpy, surly faced old man like Ole Anderson back on my TV in the modern day. I think that's a villain archetype that could work in wrestling today, but nobody is even trying it.
Yeah, I was a Shawn guy for many years, but I find that Bret's stuff has aged much better over the years. I love watching Bret's stuff and picking up on little things he'd throw in there.
Deathmatches can be really fun stunt shows when done correctly, but sometimes they do end up being bogged down by slow spots and setup.
I definitely agree that there are more heels that could be doing more to be hated, rather than be 'cool heels'. Christian is a great example of someone who does what he can to be unlikeable.
My biggest issue with HHH/Booker T was that HHH won completely clean in the end and moved on. If you're going to introduce a racial element to build heat, the babyface needs to win, or at least have some semblance of comeuppance so that the racist isn't validated.
I'll agree to disagree about the Swerve/Hangman stuff, though. That feud involved home invasions and arson, and I feel they did a great job making an extremely personal issue without relying on racism. Plus, I *loved* their Texas Death match from Full Gear. That's an example of the hardcore/deathmatch style being done right.
Of course, I forgot to mention that HHH winning in the end, therefore making him entirely correct in his assertion, likely means the assertion shouldn't have been made in the first place. Things like that can be handled case by case.
Perhaps this is another tangent for another day, but I'm here now. I think the wrestling business needs to work on not being so brazen in its fakeness. There are things that succeed hugely by continuously rubbing in your face how fake they are (the new Mad Max movies are perfect examples), but it's few and far between, and something like burning a man's house down on TV does more to remind me how fake this all is and take me out of it than make me hate Adam Page. I entirely disagree with your claim that it made it into a personal issue. I believe to many people (none of whom were watching, not at all a coincidence) it's exactly the opposite.
When I watch Ole Anderson threaten Lex Luger because there's three of us and one of you, I can buy that. I've seen that happen many times. When I see Adam Page burn a man's house down, with a cameraman as his accomplice, and see neither of them face any repercussions whatsoever, it makes it feel fake and like a television show. I understand that it is fake, and it is a television show, but the Undertaker signs his autograph the Undertaker, wrestling doesn't get the luxury of being able to act entirely fake like a television show would.
There's nothing wrong with being fake, as long as there's the possibility of it being real. Does CM Punk hate Drew McIntyre once that curtain closes? I don't know. Almost certainly not, but it's possible. How many people in Washington this year have burned a house down, admitted to it, filmed and broadcasted it, and not incurred the intervention of police?
The same goes in the matches. In a real fight, would someone be distracted by their opponent's cornerman? Likely not, but I've seen it. On the other hand, in a real fight (even one where such a thing would be allowed) would anybody stop inflicting pain on their opponent in order to put a needle through their adversary's cheek? Geez Hangman, you can't hate him that bad if you had to do this nonsense before caving his head in with a steel chair.
I don't know if AEW just has bad producers or bad wrestlers or what, but their matches in particular (talking strictly about main events. There are poor wrestlers in every company) seem to have logic holes like these in them all the time. If Hangman wants to maim Swerve more than he wants to win, why not just bash his head in and give him CTE, no needle required? If Hangman is doing anything he can to win, climb out of the cage and don't do any of this. Clearly then, his motivation is neither of these things, and what are we even doing here?
To tie this back into the original idea here, there are ways to do this stuff without feeling fake. If you burn a man's house down I scoff and change the channel. If you make fun of him for being too stupid with money to realise buying a house he doesn't need is the first step most athletes take to going broke, I could get behind that. Yeah it's offensive, and yeah it's got connotations, especially (in this example) coming from a man with a Virginia background and accent, but it's real feeling.
The sponsors may not like that being on their TV, but I think you could get away with this if you give it to a good enough talker. Even if not, AEW is doing such a good job running off sponsors with their regular programming that they ought to try to pull in a few wrestling fans. I did not mean this to be a hate on AEW session, but I do have serious issues with their presentation, mostly the nonsensical matches with wrestlers who can never seem to keep their motivations straight.
Dude you had me with this pic. I just watched the warrior Rick rude fight for the intercontinental belt on YouTube lol!!!
Bret and Shawn both shined in the ring as tag team wrestlers and the rise to the absolute top as singles for both of them was fun to watch for me. I can't say though I would have predicted it for either when they first arrived in WWF, simply based on the general criteria that seemed to be in place for a wrestler to rise to the top at that time. Your posts are continuing to make me want to go back and watch some of the old weekly shows from the same era!
Thanks, glad to hear that you're enjoying the posts! Yeah, watching at the time, not many would have pegged Shawn or Bret as future main-eventers. Probably IC title-level at most as the top of the card was the Land of the Giants. However, they had to take a chance on better, smaller athletes when the steroid scandal really started to break loose.
Yeah, agreed. I think at some point a little later in the decade the trend would have started to shift naturally away from the huge size criteria to be pushed at a high level, but the supreme ability of both Shawn and Bret to resonate with an audience helped usher in a new era quicker.
Bret and Shawn were amazing!!